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Miele Induction Hob Problem
We've had a Miele KM5731 for nine years or so, it took a while for me to fit it after we bought it, so it's probably been installed for more like 8 years. Anyway, a few days ago it started to give an error code of FE32.This is the hob, it has four induction coils and some touch buttons:
The error code appears in the power level displays:
Once the error code appears the hob is unusable. The instruction manual isn't much help, it says turn it off and on again. Well, that might work, but it's got progressively harder to conjure away over the past few days. A search on the internet resulted in many useless sites and one very useful Dutch site. From that site it transpires that there are a couple of capacitors on the power PCB that can pop and lead to this error code. I took the hob apart and had a look and indeed there were two capacitors with bulging tops.
They are both 470uF 25V electrolytics, this one has split and opened:
This one has just expanded on top:
I ordered some new high quality capacitors to replace these two and also some to replace the other electrolytics on the PCB. These arrived today and I have replaced the capacitors. So far no sign of FE32, but we'll have to see over the long term whether it's fixed or not.
Interestingly the decent quality (Panasonic) capacitors I ordered were identical to the ones fitted, except for the date code, apart from the two that had popped. So it looks like maybe there was a supplier issue with those two.
UPDATE 13th February 2018
So far there's been no re-occurrence of the problem, so it looks like the capacitors were the problem.
UPDATE 25th March 2021
I have made a video of the disassembly of my hob, it's here:
https://youtu.be/MCJaZrRvgdE
61 comments:
We have the exact same hob and about the same age - installed early 2009. This problem started last year, 2017.
Our FE 32 message comes up on cold mornings only. In summer there is no problem, but first sign of a cold morning and hey presto! We live in the country so it is an expense to get a guy out, but we will have to bite the bullet I guess. In the meantime, we heat a large stockpot of water overnight on the woodburner and put it on the hobs in the morning. Takes about 5 minutes to get the hobs working.
Janet NZ
I don't remember if our problem was temperature sensitive, it was intermittent though. If you're happy to take the hob apart then you can tell whether the capacitors are at fault as they bulge at the top. It's a simple fix if you can find someone who's used to soldering.
Excellent post!!! 2 x 50p capacitors later and all working perfectly now, thanks!!! That said, these hobs are a right faff to take apart!
We've got the same problem in colder months.
So far, our little workaround is to start the heat on setting 1. After a few mins it's ready to turn up.
It may not work for everyone but worth a try
Can we have the list of all capacitors you replaced? Not only the defective ones
Hmm, to be honest I can't remember which ones I replaced. I definitely replaced the obviously faulty ones, and I think I also replaced the ones that were from the same manufacturer as the faulty ones. They had a gold stripe if I remeber correctly. If you're concerned then I'd suggest replacing all of them, there aren't a lot. I just replaced faulty and the same manufacturer as I am happy to dismantle again in the future if necessary.
Same F32 issue with our Miele after approx 9-10 years, which progressively just got worse and worse.
I took a deep breath and started on the job. I replaced only the two capacitors (those 25v 470uf) which was pointed out by Amen and it now works just fine. It was not easy to get to the print circuits, however if you have some experience in fixing things this should not be an impossible job. I would recommend taking some photo's underway as you dissemble. Just makes things easier when you have to re-assemble.
Good luck!
I experienced the same problem with my Miele, the two capacitors shown on the pictures seemed broken. I replaced just these, and the hob works as a dream.
We have the exact same cooktop and the exact same problem. I really can't say if cold/warm weather has an influence, I recall having the problem during the summer as well. It's still usable, just that you have to try several times, best on setting 1-2 at start, and then crank up the heat. Problem has been there for a while now, just that it takes much more time nowadays to get going, so I started looking for a fix and I found that Dutch site as well with their answer to FE 32 and now your blog with the exact same cooktop. It surprises me that many sites point to other possible issues and then after the owner tries those things to no avail, he quickly gets the response to give up and replace the board 'you did all you can do'. No, they've all pointed them the wrong way.
So that cooktop is coming out and I'm ordering capacitors but for a higher voltage. As the Dutch site proposes 35V or more. Soldering, I know someone who can do that for me. Did you have trouble removing and reinstalling the cooktop? And reaching the capacitors? I find that the cooktop is taped and I should buy this specific kind of tape to reattach it so nothing can leak between cooktop and worktop.
Replacing with a higher voltage rating is no problem. I don't think I did that, but I would have replaced with at least the same voltage rating. I didn't have much trouble dismantling and re-assembling the hob. I did that twice, actually, once to check that the capacitors were the problem, then I re-assembled the hob while the capacitors were ordered, then I disassembled and re-assembled again to replaced them. I made sure I had a space for disassembled parts and took photos as I went along. I didn't replace any tape, but my hob may be slightly different to yours? I turned the hob upside down and dismantled from the bottom side (as the hob is mounted when using it). It was a bit fiddly but definitely do-able. Ah, i see what you mean about the hob and worktop now, you mean a tape the is outside the hob itself, to seal around the hole in the worktop. No, I don't have that. I installed the hob myself and I didn't fit that. I sealed the cut edge of the worktop, if I remember correctly. You may need new tape in your case, yes. It's always a good bet to replace like for like.
Once you have dismantled to the point where the PCB is accessible it can be removed and worked on like any other PCB, that part is easy if you (or someone else) has experience working on PCBs.
Thank you do much för this article. I fixed my mother's old Miele km5975 yesterday with the same FE32-issue. Found two swollen capacitors and after swapping them all was fine! So again, thanks! David/Sweden
I'm glad that you found it helpful, it's a fairly simple fix once you get the PCB out.
We had the same problem, so i took it apart (quite a hassle to get it apart and then back)
I changed the two 470uF caps and it works so far.
Thanks for a great post, saved my day
Exactly the same problem solved by changing C311 and C312 with Panasonic RC 470uF 35V capacitors. Our hob KM5775 had two separate power supplies each with two radial capacitors but having replaced them the F32 error has stopped.
Replacing them took around 2 hours because of the time it took to disassemble and reassemble the hob. Sadly all mains connections and elements had to be disconnected to get to the power supplies.
When removing the back cover I would suggest taking out all the screws and then inverting the whole assembly so that only the glass top lifts off, otherwise you can end up inadvertently disconnecting the mains connection spade connectors from the incoming connection block. With the glass removed, carefully disconnect each of the induction elements, then remove the retaining screws holding the power supply enclosures in place. Finally lift the aluminium top panel to expose the power supplies. Work in reverse to put it back together.
You should be comfortable taking things apart with good desoldering and soldering skills to attempt this repair but it will save you £600 for Miele to do the repair provided the capacitors are the only problem with your hob.
This blog is God-send. I have Miele KM5757 with the FE32 error code. I even have some temperature dependency as described by some other commenters.
I have been in contact with the Miele service, and they suggest a service cost which can buy me new cook top at IKEA with money to spare.
I would be interested to see the Dutch site you referred to. I kindly ask you to publish it.
Hi,
The Dutch site I found is this one:
https://www.klusidee.nl/Forum/storing-fe32-miele-inductie-kookplaat-km5732-t97663.html
It has details about the fix.
Thanks.
After replacing the two capacitors, my cook top is now working flawlessly.
Regards,
Terje Skjærpe
Excellent news, another fix for the list...
I have the same problem, but no good with electronics, anybody fancy earning some money
Whereabouts are you located? You'll need a local person to do this, unless you post the PCB somewhere.
Hello amen. My Miele KM5757 had a more violent end. One of the empty fuse carriers on the power board had burnt through, and the front of a power transistor had blown off. I've ordered a new power transistor and will report back to you if it has done the job.
Thanks for posting your findings, it was very helpful.
I'm glad you found it useful. I'd check other components on the PCBs for damage, and check the electrolytics as well. It may be that the supply collapsed and caused the power transistor problem, but that doesn't seem to be very common.
Hello amen. The new power transistor arrived but as i checked the board i found several SMD (surface mounted diodes) had also failed and i found the diodes impossible to identify. I did find an article discussing the failure rate of these parts, i can't find it now, but i did find another that gave it a mention,
https://hackaday.com/2013/12/02/repairing-and-adding-bluetooth-control-to-an-induction-cooker/
The unit in the image is the same as mine.
I am not skilled enough for this type of repair, but i did find a German guy advertising this repair on ebay. I sent the board to him, paid 135 euro and he repaired my board.
I'm delighted to say the hob is repaired and now back in service.
Thanks again for your blog, without it i would not have thought a repair was possible, but it is and we are so pleased with the result.
Andrew Rudge
Excellent news and an interesting Hackaday article. I'm glad you got your hob working again, throwing something like this away just because a few components have failed does seem sad.
The technology in these hobs does seem to be fairly fixable.
It wasn't just the desire to repair the hob that drove me forward. The hob was no longer in production, nothing else I could find would fit the cavity, the local Mason refused the enlarge the cavity in the granite top, presuming i could remove the top as it was bonded to the unit underneath and two columns of brickwork either side. The Mason offered to cut a new top but offered no gaurentee it would match the rest of it.
It was either repair or face a very expensive nightmare. New units, new 3m x 2m granite top plus suitable hob. You may consider what I paid expensive but the alternative would be horrific.
I have succesfully repaired a TV with bad capacitors, I think it cost me less than £7 not to mention the satisfaction of doing it, but these SMD's were so tiny, unmarked as well, I'm clearly out of my depth.
The badcaps.net is worth a visit as well, some interesting history.
Thanks again.
We have a Miele KM 5733 which also was giving the fe32 fault on very cold mornings. I simply wiped to cooktop surface with a warm cloth and it worked straight away. Hope this is helpful to someone.
Janet Aus
I have a Miele CombiSet CS1212 that had intermittent F32 problem that could be reset by toggling power to the unit. But eventually it came on hard on each of the two induction hobs. Took it apart and there are two bulging 470uF 25V 105C electrolytics probably bad. Have ordered Nichicon 470μF 25V dc Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitor, Through Hole 10 x 20mm +125°C 10mm 5mm
7621689
Nichicon UBT1E471MPD8
RoHS status - Compliant
From RS components - mainly to get the higher temperature rating - will confirm if these work!
I just did this fix on our KM57xx, a bit of a pain to pull apart but those 2 caps were swollen and its all fixed.
Desoldering was the hardest part for me.
B
I just did this fix on our KM57xx, a bit of a pain to pull apart but those 2 caps were swollen and its all fixed.
Desoldering was the hardest part for me.
B
On 13 July I posted about F32 error on Combiset 1212 induction. I can now confirm that replacing the bulging electrolytic capacitors has solved the problem - looks like a generic problem with these controller boards used in Miele Induction tops around 2009. As D-Man above has said, mine were also C311 and C312 even on a different model number Induction top! Miele in Australia want $790 to replace the whole board (they don't allow service people to replace components). I suspect, given the frequency of these failures, one could go to Consumer Complaints and argue that the Boards are not "fit for purpose". Don't like the chances though!
had Miele tech out to diagnose a KM5773 which was flashing "FE35" error code. tech found one transistor on left power electronic burned. the fuse on control electronic was blown also. tech said, "due FE35 fault both power and control electronic need to be replaced"
do you think i can just replace the transistor and the blown fuse? how does one determine which transistor to order? etc, etc.?
many thanks for any detailed help you can provide!
trying to keep a Miele KM5773 Induction cooktop alive in Northern California
had Miele tech out to diagnose a KM5773 which was flashing "FE35" error code. tech found one transistor on left power electronic burned. the fuse on control electronic was blown also. tech said, "due FE35 fault both power and control electronic need to be replaced"
do you think i can just replace the transistor and the blown fuse? how does one determine which transistor to order? etc, etc.?
many thanks for any detailed help you can provide!
trying to keep a Miele KM5773 Induction cooktop alive in Northern California
It does depend on what the problem was and why the transistor and fuse blew. You can replace anything you can find and see what happens. You are into a full fault finding exercise with all that entails. If you are familiar and comfortable with electronics then its fine, or can find someone who is. Finding faulty components is the problem, you can sometimes do that by sight and sometimes you have to remove components and test them. A schematic is very very useful for more complicated faults. As your boards are broken then you haven't got much to lose by replacing any transistors that look burnt, and the fuse, but there could be another fault that caused them to blow. It is usually a long tedious process doing this sort of fault finding. Always take precautions to ensure you are safe.
FE35 sounds like a different problem t the FE32 described here, so the fix is going to be different. The FE32 here looks to be due to a sub standard batch of capacitors, so replacing them fixes th eproblem more often than not. Your FE35 could be anything, so not as simple a fix.
OK, here's my thoughts; the capacitor problem referred to in some posts is probably not a "bad batch" of capacitors, just norma; ageing of electrolytic - I replaced the electrolytics with higher temperature rating ones hoping they would be more robust.
The FE35 problem, however, is something different. I VERY much doubt that both boards need to be replaced. You do not say which 'transistor' blew, but it would most likely be one of the IGBTs mounted on the aluminium heat sink. When it blows, it blows the PCB fuse on the control board. However, this PCB fuse has two fuse clips above the board and If you just get a replacement power board, the kit the tech gets from Miele includes a replacement fuse that clips into the control board clips. very unlikely that the control board needs replacing. I think the tech is being lazy - after all, there isn't much else that could possibly go wrong that won't be fixed by replacing both boards - at your expense!! I have had this problem too - and replacing the power board alone fixed it!
Adam
De night a house recently after few days it stop working exactly the same scenario FE35 . After reading ur post here it really save few thousand of my Sweed krone was planning to buye new one but not now I will change these 2 capacitor and I ma sure it's going to be ok .
Thanks a lot for sharing this with us .
Regards from Sweden
THANKYOU!!
Capasitors replaced and all working perfectly fine!
I did the job myself...not too difficult, but as others recommend -take pictures
as you go along, otherwise it can be a little fiddely putting toghether again.
Happy regards Trond from Norway, and thanks again for sharing!
Did you have to get a Mielè engineer out? Did you go like for like? encounter any more problems after replacing the capacitors?
I didn't get a Miele engineer out and all has been well since. I replaced the capacitors with the same value but a different manufacturer to the ones that failed. I used a better manufacturer capacitor that is the same as the other (unfailed) capacitors on the PCB (Panasonic).
Miele service calculated 1000$ to fix this problem. Thanks to you, I fixed it myself for the amount of 1$. I am so grateful!!!!
Huge kudos for this blog post. I spent a grand total of £22 and that included a brand new soldering kit and 10 capacitors, of which 4 were needed for the repair. So in reality the cost of repair was £1.20!!!
Do take LOTS of pictures as you deconstruct the hob they are invaluable when putting it back together. The Miele service engineer visit alone was going to cost £130 + VAT with parts and £80 per hour after that (no doubt also plus VAT). So I'd estimate a saving of at least £900 as the full circuit boards would have been replaced.
My KM5975 is now in fine form once again, and it's pesky 32 error code is no more.
THANKS EVERYONE!
Worked for me, thank you! There were 4 capacitors on the KM5775, although only two seemed to have swelled and just replaced those. Just the 4 hours work...
I also had the FE32 error on KM5775, only two capacitors needed changing but had all four done. I know have the error FE40, can anyone suggest anything or is it not worth fixing? Thanks John
I also had the FE32 error on my KM5775, only two capacitors needed changing but changed all four. I now have error FE40, does anyone have any ideas? Thanks John
Hi, I have developed this intermittent FE32 problem and now cannot get the Meile hob to work.
Can anyone help please?
Thanks
Meera
Great article.
I have a KM5753. I came to use it on Sunday 19th July, and got the FE32 error. I noted the house was cold. About 10 deg C.
I found this web site and Blog and will forever be thankful that one or two guys on planet earth posted their diagnosis.
Other Miele data I got from the web gave a list of the error codes, of which FE32 seemed to be 'an internal fault".
In fact, I believe the FE32 is 'Power supply voltage error'.
The two capacitors in my model are C124 and C151. These are the 470 uF 25 volt units. These were swollen at the top, just as in the photo.
This swelling is due to overheating and is usually caused by too much AC current in the capacitor. In this case, the capacitors are connected in parallel and they appear to be part of the logic power supply. The cooling fan is a 0.65 amp DC brushless unit and this is powered from this power supply.
The capacitors are rated for 105 deg C, which is better than a cheaper 85 dec C type, so the question is why do these two capacitors overheat.
The logic supply is powered from the power mains through a switching regulator, and this should not be causing a high capacitor ripple current greater than the designed values.
I contend that the overheating of the capacitors could be caused by high ripple currents from the fan motor.
I replaced the 470/25V capacitors with 470/35 V units. These are slightly larger in physical size than the originals, and they have a slightly greater ripple current rating. Also, I used a ceramic capacitor in parallel with the capacitors. The purpose of this is to shunt the high frequency ripple currents away from the electrolytic capacitors. This is normally good design practice.
I could not/did not want to get my oscilloscope out to start re-engineering the cooktop. I just followed good design practice.
I believe the problem of overheating of these capacitors is an inherent design defect, and ultimately all the cooktops will fail in this way.
Many of the blogs are consistent in their observations and I confirm the remarks made.
Some people have replaced more than the two capacitors, but for me I believe it is not necessary. The two capacitors are connected in parallel and carry the same current.
I have seen some remarks where people replaced the capacitors and then get a different fault code and the cooktop still doesnt function.
Like all computer based logic electronics, care needs to be taken to avoid electrostatic effects from damaging the electronics while the cooktop is being dismantled.
Paul
parwanestate@hotmail.com
Glad if found this blog!
We have an Miele KM5775 with the same symptoms as many other here, code FE32 when days are getting colder (no problem in summer time).
After having a service technician looking at the top (not inspecting internals), and giving a fix price so high that buying a new top is near the same price. I think to much "use and discard" thinking...
So I plan to replace the capacitors as described here a soon as possible in 2021 (Panasonic RC 470uF 35V). But my question is - is it difficult to dismantle these tops? And then especially when dismantled is it ease to release power supply circuit board from connectors?
/Tom Kristen (Norway)
I think the ease of disassembly is maybe related to how much experience of dismantling things you've had. I've taken quite a few things apart and I don't remember it being particularly hard. If you take your time and lots of photos as you go along then it should be OK. I can't remember how hard exactly it was to remove the connectors, I did this quite a while ago.
TomKristen - you can do this pretty easy, but make sure you have a good soldering iron with accessories. It's a bit tricky to change the capacitors, therefore some experience with soldering is renommended. Take plenty of pictures as you disassemble.
Thanks for your response, even as this thread was started back in 2018 :-)
I have some experience back in time working with electronics (soldering an wiring), so from what you say I would do a try as soon as get get allowance to ha downtime on the kitchen..
Hi!
I’m looking to buy capacitors to fix the FE32 issue, can someone confirm these are the right ones to buy?
A thousand thanks in advance!
https://www.elefun.se/p/prod.aspx?v=38843
Specification:
Manufacturer: Panasonic
Series: FM
Termination Style: Radial
Capacitance: 470 uF
Voltage Rating DC: 35 VDC
Tolerance: 20 %
Ripple Current: 2.18 A
Minimum Operating Temperature: -40 C
Maximum Operating Temperature: + 105 C
Diameter: 10 mm
Length: 20 mm
Lead Spacing: 5 mm
Life: 5000 Hour
ESR: 19 mOhms
Product: Low Impedance Electrolytic Capacitors
Type: Radial Lead Type
Various theories have been suggested for why these electrolytics fail. Going for these 35V DC rating ones is probably better than the original 25V ones, although I stayed with 25V and just got higher heat rated ones - 125C (Nichicon 470μF 25V dc Aluminium Electrolytic Capacitor, Through Hole 10 x 20mm +125°C from Radio Spares). It gets pretty warm around the control board and I figure this is the way to go to avoid premature ageing. 18 months later still no recurrence of the problem. Good luck.
Those capacitors sound OK.
Fundamentally, the physical size relates to the power dissipation capability.
"UNKNOWN" says he bought 470/25 volt types with a temperature rating of 125 degrees C. My guess is that the dimensions of that capacitor is 10mm diameter by 20 mm long.
The original capacitors were 10 x 17 mm.
The theory as to why they fail is that the ripple current in the capacitor is too high for the heat to be dissipated, so they get too hot, then the electrolyte gets too hot and the steam pressure in the can gets too great and the can ruptures. When the electrolyte is all dried up, the capacitance reduces and doesnt give the proper filtering required, so the power supply voltage falls.
My suspicion is that the problem is due to the cooling fan generating high frequency switching currents. These currents pass through the power supply capacitors. I think the designers overlooked the effect the fan would have on the power supply filter capacitors.
Peoples experience suggests that it takes 10 years for the cooktop to fail. With the larger capacitors I guess the life time would be greater than that if higher rated capacitors are used.
I used a small (0.047) microfarad ceramic capacitor in parallel with the electrolytics to give a bit more high frequency bypassing of the high frequency ripple currents. These small ceramic capacitors have low ESR so they bypass the High Frequency components of the current waveform away from the electrolytics.
Hope this helps.
rumpfy
Thank u. Managed to repair my cooking top with help of my friend. had a bit different circuit board layout but same faulty capasitors. pure joy of cooking right now
karipullinen@gmail.com: I'm glad you fixed your hob. It turns out that the internals of my hob are actually made by a company called E.G.O. and the PCBs used are actually in a lot of other manufacturers hobs. I suspect that the designs were use don several different PCBs, so the faults may be common across a lot of models and manufacturers. Of course, so are the good parts, and having designs across so many hobs means that they are tested and refined to a high degree.
I changed the capacitors and it worked fine now getting an FE32 code any ideas?
Sorry I’ve got the code wrong. I should of said now getting code FE31 not FE32
I have the the technical document for the KM5773 and it says:
Fault Code FE 31
Cause:
Live (phase) conductor L 2 not available.
Remedy:
Check the supply connection.
Cause:
N-conductor of the right power electronic is missing (bridge fault between
terminals 4 and 5).
Remedy:
Check that bridge between terminals 4 and 5 on terminal block is present and
has good contact. Install bridge between terminals, if necessary.
Cause:
Electronic fault.
Remedy:
1. Check the power electronic (1A3/2A3/3A3 - side where FE is displayed) and
replace it as necessary; refer to Section 010-4.9.
2. Check the filter/control electronic (1N1/2N1) and replace it as necessary;
refer to Section 010-4.10.
Cause:
Connection cable defective. Defect on connection cable between filter/control
electronic (1N1/2N1) and power electronic (1A3/2A3/3A3).
Remedy:
Check the ribbon cable (including plugs) between the filter/control electronic
(2N1) and the power electronic, and replace it as necessary.
So it looks like one of your live connections isn't there. I'm pretty sure the codes are the same as the KM5731
@amen thanks I will have to get an electrician to look at it. I can do plumbing but have never understood electrics. I replaced the old live feed wire from wall switch to the unit. May be I’ve not bridged something correctly. Thanks for the reply it’s very much appreciated. I can open it up and send some photos by DM. If you can have a look where I’ve gone wrong? Thanks
You can contact me through m5ams.20.amen@spamgourmet.com
I'll have a look but an electrician should be able to sort it for you.
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